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a ufo sighting resulted in an official

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government investigation

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after what is likely the first published

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photo of a flying disc was printed

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on the first page of a newspaper that's

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welcome to old fashioned ufos shane

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heard here

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today jason mclennan and i are having a

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casual discussion

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about the july 1947 william rhodes

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ufo sighting and the serious

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investigation that took place

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but first just like a cocktail such as

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the

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cases

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whether it be the photographic evidence

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the physical evidence

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the strength of eyewitness testimony or

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government documentation these cases are

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worthy of their classic status

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and deserve our attention so sit back

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with your beverage of choice

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and follow along as we discuss our

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favorite subject

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ufos so how you doing today jason and uh

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what you drinking i am fantastic as

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always my friend

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and uh you know answer is

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always the same but always a little

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different you know we drink old fashions

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on this show so i've got my old fashion

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um today my old fashion is made with

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basil hayden's so good stuff

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ooh that is really good stuff yeah what

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about you what's your name

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today family favorite here mine is

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my good old standby maker's mark

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excellent it's kind of my not

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special occasion but sort of special

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occasion

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so i like that still have my four roses

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but i think

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yeah you know this is a special occasion

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because we're doing this

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but it's something i'll drink uh you

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know more regularly than the

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say the four roses or something but you

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know the little existence and the sugar

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and a little yeah little cherry there

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that's a

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it's a good drink no matter what so i

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love cool cheers buddy

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all right cheers to you and

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oh yeah that's good wet the pipes all

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right

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well now that we're all settled in with

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a good drink

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let's talk ufos yeah let me start off

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with a summary of what we're going to be

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talking about

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on this episode the july 7 1947

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william rhodes case now on july 7th

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1947 which was the monday following the

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4th of july weekend

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a thunderstorm had just passed through

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phoenix

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william rhodes was in his backyard when

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he thought he heard a jet

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so looking up he saw an ovoid object

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flying out of the east at a fantastic

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speed

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now closer it began to spiral downwards

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uh so rhodes ran for his camera and he

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snapped one picture

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then suddenly the strange crab zoomed

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upwards at an angle

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and he snapped another picture and then

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it just disappeared into the clouds

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now rhodes was a very unique complex and

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controversial man

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who was a scientist and had military

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experience

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and among his very many technical

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talents

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rhodes developed the photos himself

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the first known pictures of a flying

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saucer

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at least posted in in a newspaper

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now we also have to be aware of the

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context in which this report was made

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so after all it was almost two weeks

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earlier that on june

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25th 1947 a minor news report

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had appeared in the pendleton oregon

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east oregonian newspaper

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that rocked the world and that was of

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course the

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kenneth arnold sighting which we

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discussed last month

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now ridiculed at first reports began to

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you know pour in daily of similar

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sightings first in the pacific northwest

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then

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additional states like idaho and

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california

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then the midwest and then even up in

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canada

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and then came that fourth of july

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weekend and sightings

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spiked nationwide and including one of

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the

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simultaneous sightings of multiple discs

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by sheriffs in portland oregon and

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vancouver washing

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washington and a similar report by

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dozens of picnickers

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in idaho and then two days later

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williams road had his claimed siding

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and he told a story to the phoenix

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arizona arizona republic

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newspaper which on july 9 1947 as i

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mentioned

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published rhodes story and those

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pictures

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placing them prominently on the front

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page

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now in different circumstances those

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photographs might have drawn

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considerably more attention

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but on the same day as the article

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appeared in the arizona republic

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a different story was grabbing headlines

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and that was from roswell new mexico the

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daily record

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namely that the army had recovered a

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flying desk

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i mean can you imagine you're gonna have

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to experience a lifetime and

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kind of get robbed because you know

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roswell happened on that very day or

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that newspaper posted

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all the days come on yeah no that's

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unfortunate

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but uh it's understandable that that

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would steal the thunder from just

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two photos of an object when you've got

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a military press release saying hey we

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recovered a crash flying saucer

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yeah big deal no doubt about it

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well let's talk a little bit about the

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investigation which

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to me is just as fascinating

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as those photos themselves yeah i agree

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with that

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so kind of unknown to everybody at the

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time

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the pentagon had a small group of

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high-ranking individuals

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that was gathering intelligence on the

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emerging surge of flying disk reports

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the highest ranking individual involved

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was brigadier general george shulgin

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second in command in the directorate of

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intelligence

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now although there was a swell of ufo

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headlines at the time

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it was actually concerning reports

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coming in from military bases

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that prompted shogun and his group to

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collect local reports from base

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intelligence officers

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and forward those on to washington on

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july 14 1947

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a report was filed from williams field

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in chandler arizona

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by army air force special agent lynn

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aldrich explaining the sighting

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and including those two photos obtained

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from the managing editor of the arizona

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republic

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now as part of the entire or the

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investigation process

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general shogun's group at the pentagon

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contacted the intelligence analysis

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division

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based at the air material command at

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right field ohio

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general shogun's group focused on

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intelligence collection

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so working with this intelligence

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analysis division at right field

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was the next step in the process for

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analyzing

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any data collected the colonel howard

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mccoy

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deputy commanding general of

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intelligence at the base

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and his executive officer colonel

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william klingerman

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were the two individuals seemingly in

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charge of this group tasked with

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analyzing evidence

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related to flying disks in august this

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group requested to have

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rhodes personally interviewed by the

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local counterintelligence corps

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office and then a report was filed in

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september

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so think about william rhodes at that

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time what it must have been like

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and what must have been going through

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his head here it is two months after

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that

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one day story in an arizona newspaper

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about his sighting and now he knows that

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it's being investigated by the military

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yeah that's pretty crazy i mean that's a

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lot of detailed

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heavy government involvement and you

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know to be investigated i don't know

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maybe kind of felt

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like a little bit vindicated in that you

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know he

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took these photos and saw this and and

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you know he's doing his duty and

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turned him over and um you know they

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were they were clearly taking it

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quite seriously so you know that i you

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know at that point i'm glad for him

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yeah you know this was early in the ufo

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game it's not something you'd really

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seen before on a national scale you know

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in the press so

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even getting you know local press to

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have your your ufo photos on the front

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page of an arizona newspaper

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uh that's kind of big but then to have

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this knowledge it's confirmation that

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the government is actually looking into

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your citing and not just you know some

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random

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office i mean these are these are big

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guns

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you know you've got generals at some

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pretty important places

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within the government specialized with

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analyzing this kind of stuff

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taking your sighting seriously and

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really looking into it so

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that had to be really interesting for

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him at the time yeah

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i'll bet it just kind of shows how how

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busy right field was

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you know uh yeah you know the roswell

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stuff going on there i mean

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but it it's clear that they had a

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full-blown

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investigative research technical

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analysis

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operation going there and apparently

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that was the go-to place for everything

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that's right ship everything off to

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their area 51

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yep yeah yeah pretty fascinating yeah

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well as the investigation continues we

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know that he kind of went

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you know after a little bit of this buzz

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you know

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he went back on with his life and and

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back at air material command at

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right field in ohio colonel mccoy uh

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his informal project groups have become

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the air force's official investigation

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into the flying disc

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mystery operating under the name we're

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all familiar with it

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project sign 1948

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now at one time there were dozens of

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incidents being investigated

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and some were like newly arrived reports

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you know things that were happening like

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we talked about very busy month there

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uh june and july uh others were awaiting

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analysis from

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you know prior reports but you know they

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kind of had to get in line for that

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that um those specialty groups at wright

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build to perform those analyses so

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you know this stuff takes times no doubt

290
00:10:54,310 --> 00:10:51,839
about it

291
00:10:56,630 --> 00:10:54,320
and among those cases uh that the

292
00:10:59,350 --> 00:10:56,640
negatives of rhodes photos

293
00:11:00,069 --> 00:10:59,360
were undergoing technical analysis by

294
00:11:02,630 --> 00:11:00,079
experts at

295
00:11:03,990 --> 00:11:02,640
air material command and on february

296
00:11:06,550 --> 00:11:04,000
19th of that year

297
00:11:08,470 --> 00:11:06,560
louis c gust he was chief of the

298
00:11:11,269 --> 00:11:08,480
technical project's office

299
00:11:13,750 --> 00:11:11,279
he gave this verdict on the rhodes

300
00:11:16,310 --> 00:11:13,760
photos now quote here it says

301
00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:16,320
references made to the films taken by mr

302
00:11:21,430 --> 00:11:18,640
rhodes incident number 40

303
00:11:23,750 --> 00:11:21,440
which were forwarded for examination the

304
00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:23,760
following data were derived from a study

305
00:11:29,350 --> 00:11:26,800
of the specimen a 1a

306
00:11:30,069 --> 00:11:29,360
it is concluded that the image is of

307
00:11:33,190 --> 00:11:30,079
true

308
00:11:36,389 --> 00:11:33,200
photographic nature and is not due to

309
00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:36,399
imperfections in the emulsion or lack of

310
00:11:40,790 --> 00:11:37,920
development in

311
00:11:42,230 --> 00:11:40,800
the section in question the image

312
00:11:45,269 --> 00:11:42,240
exhibits a tail

313
00:11:47,910 --> 00:11:45,279
indicating the proper type of distortion

314
00:11:48,790 --> 00:11:47,920
due to the type of shutter use the speed

315
00:11:51,190 --> 00:11:48,800
of the object

316
00:11:53,829 --> 00:11:51,200
and the fixed speed of the shutter this

317
00:11:56,470 --> 00:11:53,839
trailing off conforms to the general

318
00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:56,480
information given in the report end

319
00:12:01,110 --> 00:11:57,839
quote

320
00:12:04,710 --> 00:12:01,120
so now as curiosity peaked

321
00:12:06,790 --> 00:12:04,720
uh alfred loading the senior civilian

322
00:12:10,310 --> 00:12:06,800
scientists at project sign

323
00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:10,320
not not hynek took special interest in

324
00:12:13,910 --> 00:12:11,519
the rhodes case

325
00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:13,920
uh loading had worked in the technical

326
00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:14,720
engineering

327
00:12:19,910 --> 00:12:17,760
section since 1938 becoming

328
00:12:21,829 --> 00:12:19,920
chief of what essentially was the you

329
00:12:23,829 --> 00:12:21,839
know jet propulsion laboratory but it

330
00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:23,839
was located right field before it

331
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:26,560
relocated to pasadena

332
00:12:30,470 --> 00:12:28,079
and he was considered right field's

333
00:12:32,949 --> 00:12:30,480
resident expert on rocketry

334
00:12:36,389 --> 00:12:32,959
and he even had close association with

335
00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:36,399
rocket pioneer robert goddard

336
00:12:39,829 --> 00:12:38,720
but he also brought a special expertise

337
00:12:42,470 --> 00:12:39,839
to the task

338
00:12:42,949 --> 00:12:42,480
as a leading authority on the flying

339
00:12:46,150 --> 00:12:42,959
wing

340
00:12:48,230 --> 00:12:46,160
aircraft design of which rhodes photos

341
00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:48,240
carried a marked similarity

342
00:12:51,910 --> 00:12:50,160
and i certainly encourage everyone to

343
00:12:52,949 --> 00:12:51,920
look that up and look at those photos

344
00:12:56,389 --> 00:12:52,959
and images

345
00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:56,399
of the williams roads ufo

346
00:13:00,710 --> 00:12:58,320
uh three months following the report of

347
00:13:02,150 --> 00:13:00,720
louis gust loading flew out west to

348
00:13:04,389 --> 00:13:02,160
personally interview

349
00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:04,399
a witness of several incidents so not

350
00:13:08,710 --> 00:13:06,480
just roads but there were other ones

351
00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:08,720
and among them would be mil uh william

352
00:13:10,710 --> 00:13:10,240
rhodes and the trip had taken place

353
00:13:13,829 --> 00:13:10,720
between

354
00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:13,839
may 5th and may 8th of 1948

355
00:13:16,870 --> 00:13:16,079
so not quite a year later uh from his

356
00:13:21,110 --> 00:13:16,880
sighting

357
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:21,120
and a report was filed on may 11 1948

358
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:23,920
now what william rhodes thought of this

359
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:25,200
renewed attention

360
00:13:28,389 --> 00:13:27,279
10 months after his story was published

361
00:13:31,670 --> 00:13:28,399
is unknown

362
00:13:35,110 --> 00:13:31,680
but he was undeniably on the record

363
00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:35,120
cooperative uh he even gave his camera

364
00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:37,440
over to loading to take back to right

365
00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:38,160
field to

366
00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:40,480
to perform analysis with it he had

367
00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:42,320
turned over his negatives

368
00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:44,800
and um as a greedy followed up with a

369
00:13:49,910 --> 00:13:46,880
letter of explaining everything

370
00:13:50,629 --> 00:13:49,920
and so that as far as william rhodes

371
00:13:52,470 --> 00:13:50,639
knew

372
00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:52,480
was kind of the end of the matter that

373
00:13:55,750 --> 00:13:54,000
that was kind of the end of the

374
00:13:58,230 --> 00:13:55,760
investigation he would he would get

375
00:14:00,150 --> 00:13:58,240
a report back but that you know a letter

376
00:14:01,110 --> 00:14:00,160
but that was about it presumably his

377
00:14:03,509 --> 00:14:01,120
camera

378
00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:03,519
um and after all there was no reason for

379
00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:05,600
him to suspect that he was about to

380
00:14:10,069 --> 00:14:06,639
become

381
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:10,079
really a pawn in a power strip yeah i

382
00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:10,800
don't know

383
00:14:15,189 --> 00:14:13,600
what more any rational person would

384
00:14:17,509 --> 00:14:15,199
would think or expect

385
00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:17,519
uh they could contribute any further

386
00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:19,360
right he answered all their questions he

387
00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:21,040
provided his camera he provided the

388
00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:22,079
negatives

389
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:25,360
um not much more use can be gained from

390
00:14:30,069 --> 00:14:26,399
that witness

391
00:14:32,470 --> 00:14:30,079
so yeah i think that's exactly right

392
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:32,480
he would assume that hey my job is done

393
00:14:41,590 --> 00:14:38,150
yeah yeah i think most of us would

394
00:14:44,949 --> 00:14:41,600
but there were that is not really the

395
00:14:48,389 --> 00:14:44,959
investigation was it unfortunately not

396
00:14:50,629 --> 00:14:48,399
um it was during september 1948

397
00:14:52,550 --> 00:14:50,639
when the air force's project sign issued

398
00:14:54,150 --> 00:14:52,560
its estimate of the situation

399
00:14:55,829 --> 00:14:54,160
concluding that the most likely

400
00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:55,839
explanation for at least some flying

401
00:15:00,230 --> 00:14:57,040
saucers

402
00:15:01,990 --> 00:15:00,240
was interplanetary spacecraft

403
00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:02,000
but not surprisingly superiors of the

404
00:15:04,949 --> 00:15:03,920
pentagon weren't too thrilled by that

405
00:15:07,350 --> 00:15:04,959
conclusion

406
00:15:09,350 --> 00:15:07,360
and it was strongly rebuked leading to

407
00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:09,360
the air force's ufo investigation

408
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:12,720
being reorganized as project grudge

409
00:15:17,110 --> 00:15:16,000
in early 1949. this whole time in the

410
00:15:20,710 --> 00:15:17,120
air force's ufo

411
00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:20,720
project was hindered by personal bias

412
00:15:24,629 --> 00:15:23,440
the project grudge folks had developed

413
00:15:26,710 --> 00:15:24,639
animosity

414
00:15:28,310 --> 00:15:26,720
toward the members of project sign which

415
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:28,320
unfortunately was also applied to

416
00:15:31,590 --> 00:15:29,279
witnesses

417
00:15:34,069 --> 00:15:31,600
trusted by project sign and one of those

418
00:15:36,389 --> 00:15:34,079
witnesses was william rhodes

419
00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:36,399
interestingly and perhaps surprising to

420
00:15:39,430 --> 00:15:37,360
some

421
00:15:41,829 --> 00:15:39,440
it was dr j allen heineck who first

422
00:15:43,829 --> 00:15:41,839
hinted at discrediting rhodes

423
00:15:45,829 --> 00:15:43,839
heineck had been brought on to project

424
00:15:48,710 --> 00:15:45,839
grudge as a scientific consultant

425
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:48,720
to review 223 incidents for possible

426
00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:51,040
astronomical explanations

427
00:15:54,870 --> 00:15:53,519
but as many know he later admitted that

428
00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:54,880
it was clear to him

429
00:15:59,509 --> 00:15:57,360
that the true role the military wanted

430
00:16:01,509 --> 00:15:59,519
him to play was debunker

431
00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:01,519
and his official analysis of the rhodes

432
00:16:07,110 --> 00:16:03,920
case was used to do just that

433
00:16:09,110 --> 00:16:07,120
here's what it said i'll quote here

434
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:09,120
no astronomical explanation seems

435
00:16:11,749 --> 00:16:11,279
possible for the unusual objects cited

436
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:11,759
in this

437
00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:14,000
incident this case is especially

438
00:16:16,629 --> 00:16:15,920
important because of the photographic

439
00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:16,639
evidence

440
00:16:20,870 --> 00:16:18,480
and because of the similarity of these

441
00:16:21,990 --> 00:16:20,880
photographs to the drawings by kenneth

442
00:16:23,829 --> 00:16:22,000
arnold

443
00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:23,839
the two incidents are separated by

444
00:16:27,509 --> 00:16:25,440
slightly more than two weeks

445
00:16:28,710 --> 00:16:27,519
and of course they occurred in different

446
00:16:30,629 --> 00:16:28,720
localities

447
00:16:32,230 --> 00:16:30,639
it is however perhaps more than

448
00:16:35,269 --> 00:16:32,240
coincidence that these two

449
00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:35,279
best attested entirely independent cases

450
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:37,600
should agree so closely concerning the

451
00:16:41,590 --> 00:16:38,720
shape of the object

452
00:16:43,749 --> 00:16:41,600
and its maneuverability the present

453
00:16:46,069 --> 00:16:43,759
investigator would like to suggest

454
00:16:48,310 --> 00:16:46,079
that this incident being one of the most

455
00:16:51,350 --> 00:16:48,320
crucial in the history of these objects

456
00:16:52,949 --> 00:16:51,360
be reopened for investigation the actual

457
00:16:55,030 --> 00:16:52,959
camera used by mr rhodes

458
00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:55,040
should be examined and the original

459
00:16:58,949 --> 00:16:56,880
negatives preserved

460
00:17:00,069 --> 00:16:58,959
since from the size of the image on the

461
00:17:01,910 --> 00:17:00,079
photograph

462
00:17:03,670 --> 00:17:01,920
we can have an accurate estimate of the

463
00:17:06,390 --> 00:17:03,680
angle subtended

464
00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:06,400
by the object this in connection with

465
00:17:09,429 --> 00:17:07,520
what appears to be

466
00:17:11,829 --> 00:17:09,439
a fairly reliable estimate of the

467
00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:11,839
distance can give us an estimate of the

468
00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:12,480
forces

469
00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:14,720
and acceleration involved in the

470
00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:16,880
trajectory described by mr rhodes

471
00:17:21,750 --> 00:17:19,360
it is unfortunate that a competent

472
00:17:24,710 --> 00:17:21,760
investigator was not dispatched at once

473
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:24,720
to reenact the crime with mr rhodes and

474
00:17:30,549 --> 00:17:27,360
to obtain sketches of the trajectory etc

475
00:17:32,710 --> 00:17:30,559
before details faded from his memory

476
00:17:34,870 --> 00:17:32,720
it would be important to know at what

477
00:17:36,870 --> 00:17:34,880
altitude and azimuth mr rhodes camera

478
00:17:37,830 --> 00:17:36,880
was pointed at the time of his two

479
00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:37,840
exposures

480
00:17:41,830 --> 00:17:40,000
and the approximate time interval

481
00:17:44,070 --> 00:17:41,840
between exposures

482
00:17:46,310 --> 00:17:44,080
physical data like these are absolutely

483
00:17:48,310 --> 00:17:46,320
essential if we are to get anywhere

484
00:17:49,510 --> 00:17:48,320
in any basic physical explanation of

485
00:17:51,909 --> 00:17:49,520
these incidents

486
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:51,919
there remains the strong possibility

487
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:53,039
that the entire

488
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:56,559
incident is spurious and the invention

489
00:18:01,990 --> 00:17:59,520
of an excitable mind this strengthens

490
00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:02,000
the need for reinvestigation

491
00:18:05,110 --> 00:18:04,240
if spurious this fact should be

492
00:18:08,630 --> 00:18:05,120
highlighted

493
00:18:10,630 --> 00:18:08,640
and even publicized to quench enthusiasm

494
00:18:11,669 --> 00:18:10,640
for the irresponsible reporting of

495
00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:11,679
saucers and

496
00:18:17,350 --> 00:18:15,280
like the project grudge file

497
00:18:18,549 --> 00:18:17,360
on the rhodes case has that last

498
00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:18,559
paragraph right there

499
00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:21,520
underlined and the suggestion by heineck

500
00:18:25,510 --> 00:18:22,960
is how project grudge

501
00:18:26,470 --> 00:18:25,520
chose to treat the case first he was

502
00:18:29,270 --> 00:18:26,480
discredited

503
00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:29,280
then labeled a fraud the first attempt

504
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:30,240
to tank the case

505
00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:33,280
came in a request on march 16 1949 from

506
00:18:36,630 --> 00:18:34,240
project grudge

507
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:36,640
to louis gust who was chief of the

508
00:18:40,549 --> 00:18:38,799
technical projects office

509
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:40,559
gus is the individual who had performed

510
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:42,000
the initial analysis

511
00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:45,200
of the negatives 13 months prior to that

512
00:18:49,029 --> 00:18:47,200
the message from grudge to gust

513
00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:49,039
essentially questioned his ability as an

514
00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:50,320
investigator

515
00:18:55,029 --> 00:18:53,360
noting that his analysis had been quote

516
00:18:57,350 --> 00:18:55,039
made before your office received the

517
00:19:00,070 --> 00:18:57,360
camera in question end quote

518
00:19:01,830 --> 00:19:00,080
then after attacking the data grudge

519
00:19:03,990 --> 00:19:01,840
moved on to attacking roads

520
00:19:05,190 --> 00:19:04,000
by ordering an investigation of the man

521
00:19:08,789 --> 00:19:05,200
himself

522
00:19:11,029 --> 00:19:08,799
a report dated may 19 1949 by thomas f

523
00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:11,039
doyle jr from the air force office of

524
00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:13,520
special investigations stated

525
00:19:17,590 --> 00:19:16,160
quote colonel klingerman indicates that

526
00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:17,600
he is in receipt

527
00:19:21,669 --> 00:19:19,760
of a memorandum written by george fugate

528
00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:21,679
jr special agent

529
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:23,600
in which mr william rhodes here and

530
00:19:27,510 --> 00:19:24,720
after referred to as

531
00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:27,520
subject was interviewed as an observer

532
00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:29,280
of a flying disk

533
00:19:32,710 --> 00:19:31,120
subject contended that he took a picture

534
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:32,720
of this disc and

535
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:34,960
two positive prints of these photos were

536
00:19:39,590 --> 00:19:37,360
turned over to the csc agent

537
00:19:41,110 --> 00:19:39,600
photographic experts cannot agree as to

538
00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:41,120
whether the photographs mentioned in

539
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:42,720
essay fugate's report

540
00:19:46,470 --> 00:19:43,840
could have been taken under the

541
00:19:47,029 --> 00:19:46,480
conditions described the experts do

542
00:19:48,870 --> 00:19:47,039
agree

543
00:19:50,549 --> 00:19:48,880
that the technique used in development

544
00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:50,559
and printing of the pictures

545
00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:54,080
is extremely crude colonel klingerman

546
00:19:56,950 --> 00:19:54,880
requests

547
00:19:59,190 --> 00:19:56,960
inquiry to investigate the standing of

548
00:20:01,590 --> 00:19:59,200
the panoramic research laboratory

549
00:20:03,510 --> 00:20:01,600
and the subject in the community it is

550
00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:03,520
further desired to know the type and

551
00:20:07,029 --> 00:20:04,640
amount of business

552
00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:07,039
conducted by the organization and with

553
00:20:10,149 --> 00:20:08,000
whom

554
00:20:11,669 --> 00:20:10,159
and the social and professional status

555
00:20:13,990 --> 00:20:11,679
of subject

556
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:14,000
colonel klingerman states that later

557
00:20:18,149 --> 00:20:15,600
correspondence from the subject

558
00:20:19,909 --> 00:20:18,159
implies that he is connected with a

559
00:20:21,029 --> 00:20:19,919
panoramic research laboratory and

560
00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:21,039
observatory

561
00:20:27,029 --> 00:20:24,080
in phoenix arizona and refers to himself

562
00:20:27,669 --> 00:20:27,039
variously as chief of staff and

563
00:20:30,390 --> 00:20:27,679
president

564
00:20:31,990 --> 00:20:30,400
of that organization he also uses the

565
00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:32,000
title doctor

566
00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:34,159
according to his letterhead one of the

567
00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:35,840
specialties of panoramic

568
00:20:42,149 --> 00:20:39,280
is photography on

569
00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:42,159
16 may 1949 at the headquarters fifth

570
00:20:45,270 --> 00:20:43,520
district osi

571
00:20:47,270 --> 00:20:45,280
the writer interviewed special agent

572
00:20:48,310 --> 00:20:47,280
george fouge jr previously mentioned in

573
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:48,320
this report

574
00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:50,400
formerly as a member of the counter

575
00:20:54,149 --> 00:20:51,520
intelligence corps

576
00:20:55,350 --> 00:20:54,159
air defense command fourth air force mr

577
00:20:56,950 --> 00:20:55,360
fugate said

578
00:20:59,029 --> 00:20:56,960
that the interview resulting in the

579
00:21:02,549 --> 00:20:59,039
memorandum previously mentioned

580
00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:02,559
was a bit hazy in his mind fugate said

581
00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:04,880
that he had been instructed to interview

582
00:21:10,870 --> 00:21:07,360
subject in the company of special agent

583
00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:10,880
brower of the fbi office phoenix arizona

584
00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:12,720
mr fugate states that the thing he

585
00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:14,000
remembers most

586
00:21:18,950 --> 00:21:16,480
is the fact he saw a large quantity of

587
00:21:21,430 --> 00:21:18,960
expensive looking radio equipment

588
00:21:22,549 --> 00:21:21,440
in the subject's home this did not seem

589
00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:22,559
to be in keeping

590
00:21:26,630 --> 00:21:25,520
with subject station and life we get

591
00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:26,640
further related

592
00:21:30,549 --> 00:21:29,440
that about four months ago approximately

593
00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:30,559
february

594
00:21:34,390 --> 00:21:32,720
a friend had shown him an article in the

595
00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:34,400
question and answer section of a

596
00:21:39,990 --> 00:21:35,520
magazine

597
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:40,000
titled amazing stories

598
00:21:45,430 --> 00:21:42,720
the article was based on a letter by mr

599
00:21:47,590 --> 00:21:45,440
william a rhodes of phoenix arizona

600
00:21:49,270 --> 00:21:47,600
the article stated that mr william a

601
00:21:52,710 --> 00:21:49,280
rhodes had been interviewed

602
00:21:54,710 --> 00:21:52,720
by two federal agents that he rhodes

603
00:21:56,789 --> 00:21:54,720
had turned over two pictures of flying

604
00:21:58,470 --> 00:21:56,799
disks to those agents

605
00:22:00,950 --> 00:21:58,480
and that the pictures had never been

606
00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:00,960
returned mr rhodes desired

607
00:22:05,110 --> 00:22:03,120
information as to how he could sue the

608
00:22:07,510 --> 00:22:05,120
federal government for these pictures

609
00:22:08,630 --> 00:22:07,520
mr fugate feels that this individual is

610
00:22:11,350 --> 00:22:08,640
the subject

611
00:22:14,390 --> 00:22:11,360
of this investigation and that subject

612
00:22:16,630 --> 00:22:14,400
is a publicity seeker

613
00:22:19,029 --> 00:22:16,640
well after all this it took until august

614
00:22:20,149 --> 00:22:19,039
of 1949 for another report on this case

615
00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:20,159
to be written

616
00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:22,240
concluding that the investigation was

617
00:22:26,149 --> 00:22:24,000
complete

618
00:22:27,270 --> 00:22:26,159
after poking into rhodes personal life

619
00:22:30,149 --> 00:22:27,280
financial credit

620
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:30,159
criminal record employment religion etc

621
00:22:34,070 --> 00:22:31,200
project grudge

622
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:34,080
uncovered some odd things about rhodes

623
00:22:39,270 --> 00:22:36,559
but nothing obvious or conclusive

624
00:22:41,190 --> 00:22:39,280
his credibility remained a mystery and

625
00:22:44,149 --> 00:22:41,200
nothing was really solved at all

626
00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:44,159
but ultimately it didn't really matter

627
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:44,720
because

628
00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:46,320
by the time they finished their report

629
00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:48,640
on this case project grudge

630
00:22:53,350 --> 00:22:50,720
had already run its course and made the

631
00:22:55,669 --> 00:22:53,360
determination that ufos were

632
00:22:56,470 --> 00:22:55,679
nothing more than misidentifications

633
00:23:00,789 --> 00:22:56,480
hoaxes

634
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:04,230
oh boy that that whole account just kind

635
00:23:09,350 --> 00:23:06,000
of

636
00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:09,360
oh that just gets me i mean you know

637
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:11,120
it's like they pulled every trick out of

638
00:23:15,270 --> 00:23:12,480
the book to

639
00:23:16,149 --> 00:23:15,280
just smear smear the guy it's just

640
00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:16,159
following the play

641
00:23:22,230 --> 00:23:19,200
you know in the yeah following the

642
00:23:24,310 --> 00:23:22,240
playbook and oh my god that's just

643
00:23:26,470 --> 00:23:24,320
i don't know that's just brutal it

644
00:23:27,669 --> 00:23:26,480
really is ripping the investigators and

645
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:27,679
then ripping the witness

646
00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:29,760
i mean it's just ridiculous a little bit

647
00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:31,200
yeah

648
00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:37,840
everything they just discredited it all

649
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:40,480
man that's just maddening yeah but you

650
00:23:43,669 --> 00:23:41,360
know that's

651
00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:43,679
that's that was the like you say that

652
00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:45,520
was a playbook the lay of the land at

653
00:23:50,789 --> 00:23:47,760
the time

654
00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:50,799
yeah well you know it ended up being

655
00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:54,240
30 months had passed since uh historian

656
00:23:58,789 --> 00:23:56,080
appeared in the newspaper

657
00:24:00,870 --> 00:23:58,799
and he he had been repeatedly

658
00:24:02,470 --> 00:24:00,880
interviewed by members of the air force

659
00:24:04,710 --> 00:24:02,480
the fbi

660
00:24:05,909 --> 00:24:04,720
and others over a period of two and a

661
00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:05,919
half years so

662
00:24:09,830 --> 00:24:07,840
remember it was like just that one day

663
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:09,840
thing and and then you know he thought

664
00:24:14,149 --> 00:24:11,760
that was the end of it and then

665
00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:14,159
two three months later more and now here

666
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:16,000
is time and again

667
00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:18,000
over two and a half year period his

668
00:24:21,909 --> 00:24:20,000
neighbors had been interrogated his

669
00:24:24,549 --> 00:24:21,919
business interests examined

670
00:24:25,669 --> 00:24:24,559
his debts and credits probed in his

671
00:24:28,710 --> 00:24:25,679
personal life

672
00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:28,720
examined with a a fine-toothed comb just

673
00:24:32,470 --> 00:24:30,640
you know just looking for something that

674
00:24:36,070 --> 00:24:32,480
to discredit the poor guy

675
00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:36,080
and all the while here he is undeniably

676
00:24:42,630 --> 00:24:39,600
forthcoming honest open cooperative

677
00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:42,640
giving him their camera the negatives uh

678
00:24:46,070 --> 00:24:45,200
seemingly only wanting to you know aid

679
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:46,080
his government

680
00:24:51,110 --> 00:24:49,520
and his country so but

681
00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:51,120
at that point there would be no more

682
00:24:54,870 --> 00:24:52,559
investigations

683
00:24:56,470 --> 00:24:54,880
no more questions no more personal

684
00:24:59,190 --> 00:24:56,480
intrusion

685
00:24:59,990 --> 00:24:59,200
the unconventional but not so mysterious

686
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:00,000
william rhodes

687
00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:03,520
apparently unaware of just how precisely

688
00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:05,360
he was in the crosshairs of public

689
00:25:09,350 --> 00:25:06,640
scandal

690
00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:09,360
um was finally left to just go his own

691
00:25:13,669 --> 00:25:10,000
way

692
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:13,679
be unbothered untroubled and and

693
00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:17,600
you know left alone which is just sad

694
00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:19,279
that that's what happens they put you in

695
00:25:23,269 --> 00:25:21,520
the grinder and by the time they're done

696
00:25:26,310 --> 00:25:23,279
you just want to disappear

697
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:26,320
it's terrible but uh and i'll say

698
00:25:31,430 --> 00:25:28,080
there's so much more to this case

699
00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:31,440
more research more history about rhodes

700
00:25:38,789 --> 00:25:35,360
rhodes was no schmuck this dude was

701
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:38,799
he had excellent military uh history

702
00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:41,679
uh experience and a record there he

703
00:25:45,990 --> 00:25:44,000
received an honorary phd

704
00:25:47,909 --> 00:25:46,000
for his work in the military and then

705
00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:47,919
thereafter and there are just a lot of

706
00:25:51,750 --> 00:25:48,960
things in fact

707
00:25:53,909 --> 00:25:51,760
let me just read his obituary that kind

708
00:25:57,110 --> 00:25:53,919
of cites some of this stuff

709
00:26:00,470 --> 00:25:57,120
it says william albert rhodes phd

710
00:26:04,149 --> 00:26:00,480
aged 90 passed away january 22nd

711
00:26:05,029 --> 00:26:04,159
2007 at brighton gardens hospice of the

712
00:26:09,510 --> 00:26:05,039
valley

713
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:09,520
born in garden city kansas on 1229 1916

714
00:26:15,510 --> 00:26:12,720
to george e and bertha g rhodes dr

715
00:26:17,510 --> 00:26:15,520
rhodes first came to phoenix in 1929

716
00:26:19,669 --> 00:26:17,520
from fort collins colorado

717
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:19,679
where he had been studying music at the

718
00:26:24,310 --> 00:26:21,200
conservatory

719
00:26:27,269 --> 00:26:24,320
dr rhodes was a developmental research

720
00:26:27,669 --> 00:26:27,279
physicist and a prolific inventor who

721
00:26:30,870 --> 00:26:27,679
held

722
00:26:32,230 --> 00:26:30,880
over 40 patents in addition to his music

723
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:32,240
studies

724
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:36,240
excuse me he had an ingenious interest

725
00:26:39,430 --> 00:26:37,520
in the sciences

726
00:26:41,510 --> 00:26:39,440
and in his teens he actually built one

727
00:26:42,390 --> 00:26:41,520
of the first remotely controlled model

728
00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:42,400
airplanes

729
00:26:47,029 --> 00:26:44,240
which resulted in one of his first

730
00:26:49,750 --> 00:26:47,039
patents so can you imagine a teenager

731
00:26:52,549 --> 00:26:49,760
in 1943 he designed and built a small

732
00:26:55,110 --> 00:26:52,559
electric car that had a range of over a

733
00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:55,120
hundred miles and a top speed of 93

734
00:26:59,590 --> 00:26:56,640
miles per hour

735
00:27:01,110 --> 00:26:59,600
a true natural junior genius he went on

736
00:27:03,510 --> 00:27:01,120
to design and build

737
00:27:05,110 --> 00:27:03,520
three large telescopes of which two were

738
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:05,120
used here in arizona

739
00:27:12,149 --> 00:27:08,480
one at kitt peak observatory near tucson

740
00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:12,159
and that's when that one's run by

741
00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:14,640
university of arizona and then the other

742
00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:15,840
lowell

743
00:27:21,269 --> 00:27:18,640
observatory in flagstaff discovered and

744
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:21,279
mentored by the famous inventor dr lee

745
00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:24,240
deforest who held over 300 patents

746
00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:27,360
including the original vacuum tube they

747
00:27:30,149 --> 00:27:28,080
later

748
00:27:32,230 --> 00:27:30,159
collaborated on several inventions

749
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:32,240
including the light amplifier for

750
00:27:35,990 --> 00:27:33,600
televisions

751
00:27:36,950 --> 00:27:36,000
dr rhodes had many lifelong interests

752
00:27:40,389 --> 00:27:36,960
including being an

753
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:40,399
early ham radio operator and a solar

754
00:27:44,070 --> 00:27:41,520
scientist

755
00:27:46,950 --> 00:27:44,080
among his 40 patents are the oxy

756
00:27:50,549 --> 00:27:46,960
hydrogen generator or water torch

757
00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:50,559
a water welder no void engine

758
00:27:55,909 --> 00:27:53,679
and the mercury turbine power generator

759
00:27:57,909 --> 00:27:55,919
he was the author of many scientific

760
00:27:59,510 --> 00:27:57,919
articles and several books on a wide

761
00:28:02,870 --> 00:27:59,520
range of subjects including

762
00:28:05,269 --> 00:28:02,880
force field studies and magnetism

763
00:28:06,710 --> 00:28:05,279
he built and donated a delicate

764
00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:06,720
seismograph to

765
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:10,240
asu arizona state university recently

766
00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:12,000
typing his name in google will take you

767
00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:13,760
to explanations of many of his

768
00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:14,880
inventions

769
00:28:20,070 --> 00:28:18,080
dr rhodes is survived by his wife of 35

770
00:28:23,830 --> 00:28:20,080
years nancy ross rhodes son

771
00:28:24,870 --> 00:28:23,840
george w rhodes ph.d of albuquerque new

772
00:28:26,870 --> 00:28:24,880
mexico

773
00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:26,880
three grandchildren and six great

774
00:28:30,230 --> 00:28:28,080
grandchildren

775
00:28:32,389 --> 00:28:30,240
dr rhodes loved animals and requested

776
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:32,399
memorial contributions to be made to the

777
00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:34,720
arizona humane society

778
00:28:40,230 --> 00:28:37,840
so a slightly less biased negatively

779
00:28:43,510 --> 00:28:40,240
biased accounting of his

780
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:43,520
experience and who he was as a scientist

781
00:28:48,630 --> 00:28:46,240
and uh as opposed to the conclusions

782
00:28:51,590 --> 00:28:48,640
made there by project grudge for sure

783
00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:51,600
yeah and i i learned from that uh

784
00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:52,480
obituary

785
00:28:56,149 --> 00:28:54,320
that he and i have a couple things in

786
00:28:57,029 --> 00:28:56,159
common actually that i didn't realize

787
00:28:59,909 --> 00:28:57,039
before

788
00:29:01,269 --> 00:28:59,919
number one we share the same birthday

789
00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:01,279
december 29th

790
00:29:04,630 --> 00:29:03,200
so that's interesting i didn't know that

791
00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:04,640
about him so

792
00:29:08,549 --> 00:29:07,840
same birthday and also being an animal

793
00:29:09,830 --> 00:29:08,559
lover

794
00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:09,840
you know that's something that i would

795
00:29:13,510 --> 00:29:11,760
do to request that contributions be made

796
00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:13,520
to the arizona humane society that's

797
00:29:17,350 --> 00:29:14,240
fantastic

798
00:29:20,549 --> 00:29:17,360
so yeah two things we have in common

799
00:29:23,029 --> 00:29:20,559
very cool yep and in fact he didn't live

800
00:29:25,110 --> 00:29:23,039
too far from where you live right now

801
00:29:26,389 --> 00:29:25,120
right so fascinating kind of fascinating

802
00:29:29,669 --> 00:29:26,399
as well yep

803
00:29:32,710 --> 00:29:29,679
yeah yep sound like really a

804
00:29:35,110 --> 00:29:32,720
a really interesting guy and

805
00:29:37,029 --> 00:29:35,120
and uh you know a very credible guy you

806
00:29:40,149 --> 00:29:37,039
know to endure that kind of

807
00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:40,159
um investigation and come out with

808
00:29:43,750 --> 00:29:41,760
you know even though they tried to hang

809
00:29:44,710 --> 00:29:43,760
everything on him they couldn't in the

810
00:29:47,669 --> 00:29:44,720
end it was

811
00:29:49,510 --> 00:29:47,679
you know inconclusive so you know that

812
00:29:52,149 --> 00:29:49,520
that does say something about him

813
00:29:54,470 --> 00:29:52,159
but i think this is really kind of a ha

814
00:29:56,310 --> 00:29:54,480
a real hard lesson

815
00:29:58,230 --> 00:29:56,320
about those who have reported ufo

816
00:30:00,230 --> 00:29:58,240
sightings in the past what it was really

817
00:30:01,029 --> 00:30:00,240
like what you were opening yourself up

818
00:30:04,389 --> 00:30:01,039
to

819
00:30:07,510 --> 00:30:04,399
may be

820
00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:07,520
subject to a a high level of intrusion

821
00:30:11,909 --> 00:30:08,799
that results in your life

822
00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:11,919
being you know destroyed

823
00:30:16,549 --> 00:30:14,640
up up to destroyed by those who have the

824
00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:16,559
power incentive to do so and

825
00:30:21,190 --> 00:30:20,080
and i i just i personally for a truly

826
00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:21,200
significant case

827
00:30:24,950 --> 00:30:22,720
i think i would think long and hard

828
00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:24,960
about making it public even today

829
00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:28,000
and i'm a mufon investigator you know to

830
00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:31,120
to see what happens um you know when the

831
00:30:34,789 --> 00:30:33,120
military or the government gets involved

832
00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:34,799
in something like that like i said it

833
00:30:38,389 --> 00:30:35,760
you know

834
00:30:39,029 --> 00:30:38,399
a meaningful case or you you're going to

835
00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:39,039
be

836
00:30:44,149 --> 00:30:42,720
scrutiny

837
00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:44,159
and they really don't care what happens

838
00:30:49,350 --> 00:30:46,240
to you frankly so

839
00:30:50,389 --> 00:30:49,360
well that concludes our discussion of

840
00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:50,399
the old

841
00:30:55,909 --> 00:30:54,240
fashioned case of the 1947 williams road

842
00:30:57,269 --> 00:30:55,919
sighting and i encourage everyone to

843
00:30:59,350 --> 00:30:57,279
look that up and

844
00:31:00,549 --> 00:30:59,360
and there's a lot of great information

845
00:31:01,190 --> 00:31:00,559
out there in fact i wanted to

846
00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:01,200
acknowledge

847
00:31:05,750 --> 00:31:04,720
uh saturday night dot euphoria.com ufo

848
00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:05,760
casebot

849
00:31:11,509 --> 00:31:08,799
book dot com uh wikipedia

850
00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:11,519
project sign grudge and blue book for

851
00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:12,480
some of the recent

852
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:14,720
search that our our discussion was based

853
00:31:19,750 --> 00:31:16,080
upon

854
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:19,760
so also next time on old-fashioned ufos

855
00:31:23,909 --> 00:31:22,080
we will be discussing a fascinating

856
00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:23,919
series of sightings

857
00:31:28,310 --> 00:31:26,480
and some of america's most secret

858
00:31:30,149 --> 00:31:28,320
military development and training

859
00:31:32,710 --> 00:31:30,159
locations and testing

860
00:31:33,909 --> 00:31:32,720
at a very sensitive time and place in

861
00:31:36,470 --> 00:31:33,919
history

862
00:31:37,190 --> 00:31:36,480
so join us with your favorite beverage

863
00:31:41,669 --> 00:31:37,200
and hear

864
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:41,679
all about the green fireball case